Top Law Schools

Finding it rather difficult to find answers to a few questions on PI. Maybe y’all can help. Interested in advocating for conservative causes. I suppose a nonprofit (or perhaps a for profit PI firm) is the best front line option? How competitive are conservative legal organizations/firms though? Are your options limited to ones without national impact if you’re outside of T14? Any info will help. I’m sure there will be more people here who would have the answers regarding the other side of the political aisle but maybe it’s pretty similar…?

Do you have some examples? Something like the Pacific Legal Foundation? They've been involved in a number of major land rights and takings cases that SCOTUS has taken for over three decades. That is the first that comes to mind for me anyway, most of the attorneys there attended schools outside of the T-14. Institute for Justice is another you might look into.

TTTTorbust wrote: ↑

Tue Jul 06, 2021 4:41 pm

Do you have some examples? Something like the Pacific Legal Foundation? They've been involved in a number of major land rights and takings cases that SCOTUS has taken for over three decades. That is the first that comes to mind for me anyway, most of the attorneys there attended schools outside of the T-14. Institute for Justice is another you might look into.

Yeah I was able to find the staff attorneys list for those two today actually and I saw how most are not T14. That’s surprising though. Are there higher tier jobs in conservative impact litigation that only take t14 or do they all just wanna see a commitment to the cause and/or are there just not a lot of people going for these jobs since the pay is so low? What about private pi firms that might pay higher and have just as impactful cases? Are there any conservative/libertarian ones? Finally, my dream would be to be able to do this kind of work while living in Florida. I assume the best bet then would be to go uf and then try to extern/something at the Florida office for IJ or PLF or something else? Also, those are libertarian. Tough to find good conservative ones online, let alone with offices in Florida. Don’t know why I’m finding it so difficult to search this stuff

forthecause wrote: ↑

Wed Jul 07, 2021 12:35 am

TTTTorbust wrote: ↑

Tue Jul 06, 2021 4:41 pm

Do you have some examples? Something like the Pacific Legal Foundation? They've been involved in a number of major land rights and takings cases that SCOTUS has taken for over three decades. That is the first that comes to mind for me anyway, most of the attorneys there attended schools outside of the T-14. Institute for Justice is another you might look into.

Yeah I was able to find the staff attorneys list for those two today actually and I saw how most are not T14. That’s surprising though. Are there higher tier jobs in conservative impact litigation that only take t14 or do they all just wanna see a commitment to the cause and/or are there just not a lot of people going for these jobs since the pay is so low? What about private pi firms that might pay higher and have just as impactful cases? Are there any conservative/libertarian ones? Finally, my dream would be to be able to do this kind of work while living in Florida. I assume the best bet then would be to go uf and then try to extern/something at the Florida office for IJ or PLF or something else? Also, those are libertarian. Tough to find good conservative ones online, let alone with offices in Florida. Don’t know why I’m finding it so difficult to search this stuff

Yes, there are higher tier jobs that are very selective. Consovoy McCarthy has become the go-to conservative firm, and they're very selective. Becket is considered arguably the best in the religious liberty sphere. They're also selective. There are a number of others (Alliance Defending Freedom, for example), but I can't name most off the top of my head. I don't know which ones are operating in Florida.

But speaking frankly, your best bet would likely be working in the Solicitor General's office/division/unit for a Republican Attorney General. With Florida having a Republican AG, they currently have a number of conservative lawyers working in that role. It's a great mix of routine cases to cut your teeth on with a lot of impact litigation (both direct and amicus) mixed in.

The challenge is that those jobs (impact litigation jobs, even conservative ones) are not easy to get. They are competitive. You don't necessarily need to have gone to a t14 law school, but you do need to have clerked, usually. So it would be a good idea to go to the best law school possible. Federal COA clerkships will open up those sort of doors, especially if you're committed to the cause. Conservative groups are less snooty about law school. But they still typically want people who have clerked.

Wherever you go to law school, get very involved in the Federalist Society, go to all the national events you can, and network. That'll take you far in conservative circles. But the best advice I can give is to try and go to a t14 law school (and the best possible one you can get into, at that). It'll make achieving your dreams much easier. UF is a good law school, but it'll be much harder to accomplish your goals from there than it would be from the University of Chicago, UVA, or Duke, for example.

lavarman84 wrote: ↑

Thu Jul 08, 2021 1:00 am

forthecause wrote: ↑

Wed Jul 07, 2021 12:35 am

TTTTorbust wrote: ↑

Tue Jul 06, 2021 4:41 pm

Do you have some examples? Something like the Pacific Legal Foundation? They've been involved in a number of major land rights and takings cases that SCOTUS has taken for over three decades. That is the first that comes to mind for me anyway, most of the attorneys there attended schools outside of the T-14. Institute for Justice is another you might look into.

Yeah I was able to find the staff attorneys list for those two today actually and I saw how most are not T14. That’s surprising though. Are there higher tier jobs in conservative impact litigation that only take t14 or do they all just wanna see a commitment to the cause and/or are there just not a lot of people going for these jobs since the pay is so low? What about private pi firms that might pay higher and have just as impactful cases? Are there any conservative/libertarian ones? Finally, my dream would be to be able to do this kind of work while living in Florida. I assume the best bet then would be to go uf and then try to extern/something at the Florida office for IJ or PLF or something else? Also, those are libertarian. Tough to find good conservative ones online, let alone with offices in Florida. Don’t know why I’m finding it so difficult to search this stuff

Yes, there are higher tier jobs that are very selective. Consovoy McCarthy has become the go-to conservative firm, and they're very selective. Becket is considered arguably the best in the religious liberty sphere. They're also selective. There are a number of others (Alliance Defending Freedom, for example), but I can't name most off the top of my head. I don't know which ones are operating in Florida.

But speaking frankly, your best bet would likely be working in the Solicitor General's office/division/unit for a Republican Attorney General. With Florida having a Republican AG, they currently have a number of conservative lawyers working in that role. It's a great mix of routine cases to cut your teeth on with a lot of impact litigation (both direct and amicus) mixed in.

The challenge is that those jobs (impact litigation jobs, even conservative ones) are not easy to get. They are competitive. You don't necessarily need to have gone to a t14 law school, but you do need to have clerked, usually. So it would be a good idea to go to the best law school possible. Federal COA clerkships will open up those sort of doors, especially if you're committed to the cause. Conservative groups are less snooty about law school. But they still typically want people who have clerked.

Wherever you go to law school, get very involved in the Federalist Society, go to all the national events you can, and network. That'll take you far in conservative circles. But the best advice I can give is to try and go to a t14 law school (and the best possible one you can get into, at that). It'll make achieving your dreams much easier. UF is a good law school, but it'll be much harder to accomplish your goals from there than it would be from the University of Chicago, UVA, or Duke, for example.

I see. Thanks for the info. Any idea about what percentile you’d have to be in your class from, say, a UF or similar school to get a federal coa clerkship? I’ve seen the ABA employment data but it’s tough to determine since people aren’t all trying to get the same things. Also, I’m aware the pay for those conservative legal groups/firms is pretty low, but I’m having trouble finding exactly what kind of numbers and progression you’re looking at there. I assume the nonprofit ones at least are 9-5 though? (Presumably leaving plenty of free time to supplement your income)…Finally, if one can’t get right into that world out of law school, what are the best feeders for them? Jag? Ada? Other govt work?

Probably top 5% or so (depending on size of the class) to get a COA out of UF or similar, depending on things like connections and where you apply. Maybe more like single-digit class rank.

forthecause wrote: ↑

Thu Jul 08, 2021 11:23 am

I see. Thanks for the info. Any idea about what percentile you’d have to be in your class from, say, a UF or similar school to get a federal coa clerkship? I’ve seen the ABA employment data but it’s tough to determine since people aren’t all trying to get the same things. Also, I’m aware the pay for those conservative legal groups/firms is pretty low, but I’m having trouble finding exactly what kind of numbers and progression you’re looking at there. I assume the nonprofit ones at least are 9-5 though? (Presumably leaving plenty of free time to supplement your income)…Finally, if one can’t get right into that world out of law school, what are the best feeders for them? Jag? Ada? Other govt work?

JAG might give you a chance, but it's far from guaranteed. Government work that involves writing could be helpful. It's hard to say. There just aren't a ton of jobs available doing that sort of work. I'd recommend trying to meet people who work for those organizations and asking them. (Or reach out and try to set up informational phone calls if you're not in a position to meet them in person.) I couldn't tell you what the most common alternative path would be.

At UF or a similar school, you'd likely need to be in the single digits of your class. Networking could give you more wiggle room, but COA clerkships are extraordinarily competitive. That's why I'd recommend going to a t14. It's much more attainable at a school like UVA or UChicago. You have a lot more margin for error and a stronger network.

lavarman84 wrote: ↑

Thu Jul 08, 2021 6:41 pm

forthecause wrote: ↑

Thu Jul 08, 2021 11:23 am

I see. Thanks for the info. Any idea about what percentile you’d have to be in your class from, say, a UF or similar school to get a federal coa clerkship? I’ve seen the ABA employment data but it’s tough to determine since people aren’t all trying to get the same things. Also, I’m aware the pay for those conservative legal groups/firms is pretty low, but I’m having trouble finding exactly what kind of numbers and progression you’re looking at there. I assume the nonprofit ones at least are 9-5 though? (Presumably leaving plenty of free time to supplement your income)…Finally, if one can’t get right into that world out of law school, what are the best feeders for them? Jag? Ada? Other govt work?

JAG might give you a chance, but it's far from guaranteed. Government work that involves writing could be helpful. It's hard to say. There just aren't a ton of jobs available doing that sort of work. I'd recommend trying to meet people who work for those organizations and asking them. (Or reach out and try to set up informational phone calls if you're not in a position to meet them in person.) I couldn't tell you what the most common alternative path would be.

At UF or a similar school, you'd likely need to be in the single digits of your class. Networking could give you more wiggle room, but COA clerkships are extraordinarily competitive. That's why I'd recommend going to a t14. It's much more attainable at a school like UVA or UChicago. You have a lot more margin for error and a stronger network.

Got it. So you had mentioned that if staying in Florida were important to me that I should consider working in the solicitor general’s office. How does that office give one more exposure to partisan advocacy than, say, trying to be an AAG or another state government job? Also, do you know anything about what it would take to get into that office? And is attending law school in state just as good if not better than attending T14 in regards to state government positions? Thanks for all the info.

forthecause wrote: ↑

Fri Jul 09, 2021 11:23 am

Got it. So you had mentioned that if staying in Florida were important to me that I should consider working in the solicitor general’s office. How does that office give one more exposure to partisan advocacy than, say, trying to be an AAG or another state government job?

Because most other jobs/offices are doing more run-of-the-mill litigation. Somebody sued the state or the local government, and you defend it. There might be some local government jobs that also expose you to partisan advocacy, but they won't carry the prestige that working for a state SG does. Plus, you end up working with many of those major conservative advocacy groups (and Consovoy) when you're with the state SG.

As an Assistant or Deputy SG, you're often handling political work. It's the nature of the job. You're reviewing amicus opportunities in the most politically high-profile cases. You're strategizing with other state AG offices who hold similar views on litigation opportunities, especially against the federal government if the President is a member of a different party. And you may even be working with your state's Governor's office to review policies and offer input on certain political decisions, if they belong to the same party.

If you're looking for partisan advocacy, it's a great job. I can't speak specifically to how Florida does things. I didn't work for Florida and am not conservative. But it's a great job if you want to be involved in litigating high-profile political cases.

Also, do you know anything about what it would take to get into that office?

I couldn't say exactly what it would take. But the best path is going to be Florida ties + a federal COA clerkship + conservative credentials (Fed Soc, conservative clerkship, conservative fellowships, etc.) + some luck. Because there have be positions available, and those only open up sporadically. Outside of that path, you could try going to work in the state AG's office as a litigator, earning a lot of respect (especially in an appellate role), and hopefully earning an opportunity to lateral into it. It happens. But it's far from guaranteed. It's much easier if the SG knows whom you are, knows the caliber of work you do, and likes you.

Another potential route would be clerking for a Florida Supreme Court justice or another judge who would be connected there (like Scott Makar or Allen Winsor). You might have to go get appellate experience elsewhere first (maybe at a law firm, local government position, or in a different state AG division), but that could help you find a way in.

I don't know how far you are from Tallahassee, but Amit Agarwal, the current Florida SG, has always struck me (in my limited experience with him) as a very nice guy. Once you get into or go to law school, you could try reaching out to him.

And is attending law school in state just as good if not better than attending T14 in regards to state government positions? Thanks for all the info.

Not for that particular position. The easiest path will be a prestigious degree, a federal COA clerkship, and some prestigious work experience if there isn't a position immediately available in the Florida SG's office. But if you can't get into a t14 school, outside of Vanderbilt, Florida is probably your best route to that particular job.