Switching firms post-clerkship? In between clerkships? Forum

[ComfortablyNumb]

I was recently avoiding bar prep by looking at NALP post-clerkship hiring data for top DC firms. Something that stood out to me is how few non-summers were hired by top firms post-clerkship.

A few examples:

• Covington DC hired 21 clerks last year. 19 were former summers.

• Gibson DC hired 13 clerks last year. 11 were former summers.

• Wilmer DC also hired 13 clerks last year. 12 were former summers.

I had always figured post-clerkship transfer hiring was more robust than this. What’s the explanation? Is the NALP data crap? (Here’s an example: NALP says Jones Day DC hired 6 clerks in 2021; 5 were former summers. But at least 2 of its 2021 Supreme Court clerk–hires summered at different firms. Maybe S. Ct. clerks don’t count in this NALP measure?)

I was hoping to trade up from my V50 post-clerkship. I have a flyover district clerkship followed by a gap year then a 2/9/DC clerkship. I’m wondering now just how big a challenge it will be to get hired post-appellate, let alone in the gap year (which would be ideal).

[Anonymous User]

I was recently avoiding bar prep by looking at NALP post-clerkship hiring data for top DC firms. Something that stood out to me is how few non-summers were hired by top firms post-clerkship.

A few examples:

• Covington DC hired 21 clerks last year. 19 were former summers.

• Gibson DC hired 13 clerks last year. 11 were former summers.

• Wilmer DC also hired 13 clerks last year. 12 were former summers.

I had always figured post-clerkship transfer hiring was more robust than this. What’s the explanation? Is the NALP data crap? (Here’s an example: NALP says Jones Day DC hired 6 clerks in 2021; 5 were former summers. But at least 2 of its 2021 Supreme Court clerk–hires summered at different firms. Maybe S. Ct. clerks don’t count in this NALP measure?)

I was hoping to trade up from my V50 post-clerkship. I have a flyover district clerkship followed by a gap year then a 2/9/DC clerkship. I’m wondering now just how big a challenge it will be to get hired post-appellate, let alone in the gap year (which would be ideal).

It's really hard to trade up as a junior associate with zero practice experience. You're asking a law firm to pay you $250,000 base plus $50,000 bonus, plus $75,000 to $100,000 clerkship bonus. Your gold stars alone are not worth that much.

I had six two-to-five-hour long callbacks this cycle, and had no luck. I'm doing bigfed after my clerkship, but I wish I got even one offer after all that effort.

[Anonymous User]

Where are you finding the info about which clerks were former summers? (I’m bad at NALP and would like to go look at that.)

[Anonymous User]

I made the mistake of skipping OCI and resting on V50 offer in a secondary market because I didn’t really know about boutiques or the dynamic/hierarchy among litigation firms. I’m now clerking and looking at DC for after. If these stats are somewhat accurate, that’s unfortunate. Don’t know why I’m surprised though—so much in this profession rewards immediate success as a Fall 1L (what’s the point of school then?) and knowing exactly what you want early on. Guess that’s like life in general though.

[Anonymous User]

I wouldn’t assume the data is flawed because DC is a different beast then most other major markets, especially if your goal is lit (which I’m assuming it is bc of the two clerkships). I’m a current clerk in a flyover district, and every clerk in my districts, except one (plus the circuit clerks in our court house), who wanted “to trade up” was able to. This is anecdotal and the market is crazy right now so keep that in mind. For the circuit clerks, one who summered at a V50 had offers from a V5 firm and a prominent lit boutique. Another summered at a regional firm and is going to a V5 in DC. Of the district court clerks, one summered at a V100 and is going to a V5 in a less competitive market than DC. Another is going to a V10 with no prior private practice experience. The one clerk who didn’t “trade up,” is very smart but I’m unsure how they would come across during interviews. As usual, once you have the gold stars, it’s more about fit than anything else. Also for reference, 3/4 of the clerks landing jobs didn’t go to T14 schools.

[Anonymous User]

I wouldn’t assume the data is flawed because DC is a different beast then most other major markets, especially if your goal is lit (which I’m assuming it is bc of the two clerkships). I’m a current clerk in a flyover district, and every clerk in my districts, except one (plus the circuit clerks in our court house), who wanted “to trade up” was able to. This is anecdotal and the market is crazy right now so keep that in mind. For the circuit clerks, one who summered at a V50 had offers from a V5 firm and a prominent lit boutique. Another summered at a regional firm and is going to a V5 in DC. Of the district court clerks, one summered at a V100 and is going to a V5 in a less competitive market than DC. Another is going to a V10 with no prior private practice experience. The one clerk who didn’t “trade up,” is very smart but I’m unsure how they would come across during interviews. As usual, once you have the gold stars, it’s more about fit than anything else. Also for reference, 3/4 of the clerks landing jobs didn’t go to T14 schools.

This reflects the results in my district/circuit. The doom and gloom surrounding top DC lit might be true, but I haven’t found it anecdotally here.

[Anonymous User]

Yeah, I think some of this is the sample. If you’re interested in top DC lit it’s not surprising that people who could get an SA at those firms would then clerk and come back to the same firm. They don’t have much incentive to move. That may make it tough for people to trade up to the very top firms in DC, but doesn’t necessarily mean you can’t trade up at all.

[Anonymous User]

Anyone know what impact clerking on the DC Circuit has on applying to the top DC firms? I assume there is some boost compared to other circuits, but does anyone know how much that boost is?

[Anonymous User]

Anyone know what impact clerking on the DC Circuit has on applying to the top DC firms? I assume there is some boost compared to other circuits, but does anyone know how much that boost is?

I have never seen a "DC Circuit" boost in comparison to other circuits by virtue of clerking on the DC Circuit. So if you have a 3.0 from Blue Mountain State Law School, but Wilkins or Henderson or whoever liked the cut of your jib, you aren't automatically going to get a spot in the appellate group at GDC or dramatically improve your post-clerking prospects as compared to someone with a 4.0 from HYS clerking on the 4th circuit.

DC Circuit clerks place well at DC firms because they usually have incredible grades and good connections, which is more or less required now to clerk on the circuit in the first place. They weren't struggling to get a DC law spot at OCI.

[Anonymous User]

Yeah anecdotally myself and all of my coclerks switched employers without much trouble, albeit mostly to boutiques.

[Anonymous User]

OP, think you'll have much better luck after you finish your clerkship on 2/9/DC. Just another data point for you, but anecdotally, I had almost zero luck coming off a district court clerkship in a competitive district into a gap year followed by a clerkship on 2/9/DC. The vast majority of firms I applied to and/or interviewed with were hostile to the gap year idea, some very openly.

[Anonymous User]

Anyone know what impact clerking on the DC Circuit has on applying to the top DC firms? I assume there is some boost compared to other circuits, but does anyone know how much that boost is?

I have never seen a "DC Circuit" boost in comparison to other circuits by virtue of clerking on the DC Circuit. So if you have a 3.0 from Blue Mountain State Law School, but Wilkins or Henderson or whoever liked the cut of your jib, you aren't automatically going to get a spot in the appellate group at GDC or dramatically improve your post-clerking prospects as compared to someone with a 4.0 from HYS clerking on the 4th circuit.

DC Circuit clerks place well at DC firms because they usually have incredible grades and good connections, which is more or less required now to clerk on the circuit in the first place. They weren't struggling to get a DC law spot at OCI.

Pretty much. In fact, the top DC firms may be the least regionally biased firms in the country. They don't have much homerism for local law schools past Georgetown, and they're too sophisticated to conflate circuits with abstract notions of prestige. For instance, they'll know that Colloton or Stras (Eighth Circuit) are better clerkships than Henderson or Walker (D.C. Circuit), even though the Eighth Circuit is arguably the "least prestigious" regional circuit.

[ComfortablyNumb]

Thanks everybody for the responses. A mixed bag of inspiring and dispiriting anecdotes.

Where are you finding the info about which clerks were former summers? (I’m bad at NALP and would like to go look at that.)

From www.nalpdirectory.com, search for firm and office. Then click the Recruitment & Hiring tab. Then expand the section called "Hiring Grid." The table will show how many associates were hired post-clerkship and how many were former summers.

[Anonymous User]

Anyone know what impact clerking on the DC Circuit has on applying to the top DC firms? I assume there is some boost compared to other circuits, but does anyone know how much that boost is?

I have never seen a "DC Circuit" boost in comparison to other circuits by virtue of clerking on the DC Circuit. So if you have a 3.0 from Blue Mountain State Law School, but Wilkins or Henderson or whoever liked the cut of your jib, you aren't automatically going to get a spot in the appellate group at GDC or dramatically improve your post-clerking prospects as compared to someone with a 4.0 from HYS clerking on the 4th circuit.

DC Circuit clerks place well at DC firms because they usually have incredible grades and good connections, which is more or less required now to clerk on the circuit in the first place. They weren't struggling to get a DC law spot at OCI.

Pretty much. In fact, the top DC firms may be the least regionally biased firms in the country. They don't have much homerism for local law schools past Georgetown, and they're too sophisticated to conflate circuits with abstract notions of prestige. For instance, they'll know that Colloton or Stras (Eighth Circuit) are better clerkships than Henderson or Walker (D.C. Circuit), even though the Eighth Circuit is arguably the "least prestigious" regional circuit.

What crack are you smoking to think that Stras or Colloton is a better clerkship than anyone on CADC? They’re both fine judges and I agree people will treat you fine applying to DC, but that’s just patently untrue by any metric. CA8 docket will be less relevant to DC practice and those are just less competitive clerkships full stop. If you don’t get a decent location you end up in the pit of CA8 or what not. I don’t know a single person who applied wanting any of the flyover judges more than the good circuits, with the (notable) exception of the few bona fide fedsoc feeders like Sutton or Thapar. Have never heard anyone be like “wow I’d love to clerk for Stras, in whatever random place he’s in these days”. Desire begets competitiveness.

There is some CADC bump from what I’ve seen. DC firms have big regulatory practices and care about the admin chops you’re perceived to have. And everyone knows it’s super hard to get, so you just get prestige for being perceived to be either better connected or having superior credentials. Yes, other clerkships with well known judges elsewhere give you that, but the circuit offers a little bump.

[Anonymous User]

Anyone know what impact clerking on the DC Circuit has on applying to the top DC firms? I assume there is some boost compared to other circuits, but does anyone know how much that boost is?

I have never seen a "DC Circuit" boost in comparison to other circuits by virtue of clerking on the DC Circuit. So if you have a 3.0 from Blue Mountain State Law School, but Wilkins or Henderson or whoever liked the cut of your jib, you aren't automatically going to get a spot in the appellate group at GDC or dramatically improve your post-clerking prospects as compared to someone with a 4.0 from HYS clerking on the 4th circuit.

DC Circuit clerks place well at DC firms because they usually have incredible grades and good connections, which is more or less required now to clerk on the circuit in the first place. They weren't struggling to get a DC law spot at OCI.

Pretty much. In fact, the top DC firms may be the least regionally biased firms in the country. They don't have much homerism for local law schools past Georgetown, and they're too sophisticated to conflate circuits with abstract notions of prestige. For instance, they'll know that Colloton or Stras (Eighth Circuit) are better clerkships than Henderson or Walker (D.C. Circuit), even though the Eighth Circuit is arguably the "least prestigious" regional circuit.

What crack are you smoking to think that Stras or Colloton is a better clerkship than anyone on CADC? They’re both fine judges and I agree people will treat you fine applying to DC, but that’s just patently untrue by any metric. CA8 docket will be less relevant to DC practice and those are just less competitive clerkships full stop. If you don’t get a decent location you end up in the pit of CA8 or what not. I don’t know a single person who applied wanting any of the flyover judges more than the good circuits, with the (notable) exception of the few bona fide fedsoc feeders like Sutton or Thapar. Have never heard anyone be like “wow I’d love to clerk for Stras, in whatever random place he’s in these days”. Desire begets competitiveness.

There is some CADC bump from what I’ve seen. DC firms have big regulatory practices and care about the admin chops you’re perceived to have. And everyone knows it’s super hard to get, so you just get prestige for being perceived to be either better connected or having superior credentials. Yes, other clerkships with well known judges elsewhere give you that, but the circuit offers a little bump.

Would add as well that many partners clerked on CADC or SCOTUS and are likely familiar with the judges and clerk families. Clerking on CADC you get to know most of the other clerks pretty well since they're in the same building and there are some weird circuit quirks like clerk conferences, which also tends to mean you know a lot more of the eventual SCOTUS crop (and nominees) etc. The connections and proximity to power from CADC are non-trivially valuable in hiring process, as is the strength of nearly every clerk family. In the above example, Walker may be somewhat of an exception since I think he basically works remotely from KY but the general rule holds I think.

[Anonymous User]

It seems to me that the prestige from signaling superior credentials is a bit of a wash - if you’re applying somewhere they’re going to see your credentials directly and will be able to see the credentials that got you the clerkship. I suppose getting that kind of clerkship signals you have some powerhouse recommenders, but I think that would end up pretty clear to employers from your application itself as well.

But connections are obviously extremely valuable, and I can definitely see the regulatory experience being desirable too.

[Anonymous User]

Anyone know what impact clerking on the DC Circuit has on applying to the top DC firms? I assume there is some boost compared to other circuits, but does anyone know how much that boost is?

I have never seen a "DC Circuit" boost in comparison to other circuits by virtue of clerking on the DC Circuit. So if you have a 3.0 from Blue Mountain State Law School, but Wilkins or Henderson or whoever liked the cut of your jib, you aren't automatically going to get a spot in the appellate group at GDC or dramatically improve your post-clerking prospects as compared to someone with a 4.0 from HYS clerking on the 4th circuit.

DC Circuit clerks place well at DC firms because they usually have incredible grades and good connections, which is more or less required now to clerk on the circuit in the first place. They weren't struggling to get a DC law spot at OCI.

Pretty much. In fact, the top DC firms may be the least regionally biased firms in the country. They don't have much homerism for local law schools past Georgetown, and they're too sophisticated to conflate circuits with abstract notions of prestige. For instance, they'll know that Colloton or Stras (Eighth Circuit) are better clerkships than Henderson or Walker (D.C. Circuit), even though the Eighth Circuit is arguably the "least prestigious" regional circuit.

What crack are you smoking to think that Stras or Colloton is a better clerkship than anyone on CADC? They’re both fine judges and I agree people will treat you fine applying to DC, but that’s just patently untrue by any metric. CA8 docket will be less relevant to DC practice and those are just less competitive clerkships full stop. If you don’t get a decent location you end up in the pit of CA8 or what not. I don’t know a single person who applied wanting any of the flyover judges more than the good circuits, with the (notable) exception of the few bona fide fedsoc feeders like Sutton or Thapar. Have never heard anyone be like “wow I’d love to clerk for Stras, in whatever random place he’s in these days”. Desire begets competitiveness.

There is some CADC bump from what I’ve seen. DC firms have big regulatory practices and care about the admin chops you’re perceived to have. And everyone knows it’s super hard to get, so you just get prestige for being perceived to be either better connected or having superior credentials. Yes, other clerkships with well known judges elsewhere give you that, but the circuit offers a little bump.

I frankly don’t think you’re very plugged into the federal clerkship game if you think Stras is not selective. Idk if he’s truly more selective than Henderson and Walker, mostly bc I’m not too familiar with the latter two’s hiring practices, but Stras is comfortably in the top decile in selectivity in the country. And Minneapolis is a great city by any metric. Colloton also draws many top applicants, though probably a bit less so for various reasons.

It’s also certainly not true that top applicants generally prefer lower-tier coastal judges to upper-tier non-coastal judges, unless maybe if your social circle is from CLS or NYU, which are well-known for their unusual clerkship cultures.

[Anonymous User]

Anyone know what impact clerking on the DC Circuit has on applying to the top DC firms? I assume there is some boost compared to other circuits, but does anyone know how much that boost is?

I have never seen a "DC Circuit" boost in comparison to other circuits by virtue of clerking on the DC Circuit. So if you have a 3.0 from Blue Mountain State Law School, but Wilkins or Henderson or whoever liked the cut of your jib, you aren't automatically going to get a spot in the appellate group at GDC or dramatically improve your post-clerking prospects as compared to someone with a 4.0 from HYS clerking on the 4th circuit.

DC Circuit clerks place well at DC firms because they usually have incredible grades and good connections, which is more or less required now to clerk on the circuit in the first place. They weren't struggling to get a DC law spot at OCI.

Pretty much. In fact, the top DC firms may be the least regionally biased firms in the country. They don't have much homerism for local law schools past Georgetown, and they're too sophisticated to conflate circuits with abstract notions of prestige. For instance, they'll know that Colloton or Stras (Eighth Circuit) are better clerkships than Henderson or Walker (D.C. Circuit), even though the Eighth Circuit is arguably the "least prestigious" regional circuit.

What crack are you smoking to think that Stras or Colloton is a better clerkship than anyone on CADC? They’re both fine judges and I agree people will treat you fine applying to DC, but that’s just patently untrue by any metric. CA8 docket will be less relevant to DC practice and those are just less competitive clerkships full stop. If you don’t get a decent location you end up in the pit of CA8 or what not. I don’t know a single person who applied wanting any of the flyover judges more than the good circuits, with the (notable) exception of the few bona fide fedsoc feeders like Sutton or Thapar. Have never heard anyone be like “wow I’d love to clerk for Stras, in whatever random place he’s in these days”. Desire begets competitiveness.

There is some CADC bump from what I’ve seen. DC firms have big regulatory practices and care about the admin chops you’re perceived to have. And everyone knows it’s super hard to get, so you just get prestige for being perceived to be either better connected or having superior credentials. Yes, other clerkships with well known judges elsewhere give you that, but the circuit offers a little bump.

I frankly don’t think you’re very plugged into the federal clerkship game if you think Stras is not selective. Idk if he’s truly more selective than Henderson and Walker, mostly bc I’m not too familiar with the latter two’s hiring practices, but Stras is comfortably in the top decile in selectivity in the country. And Minneapolis is a great city by any metric. Colloton also draws many top applicants, though probably a bit less so for various reasons.

It’s also certainly not true that top applicants generally prefer lower-tier coastal judges to upper-tier non-coastal judges, unless maybe if your social circle is from CLS or NYU, which are well-known for their unusual clerkship cultures.

Quoted anon. HYS, 2 feeder clerkships, 3 co-clerks/very close friends already hired at scotus but please tell me I’m not plugged into the clerkship scene lol. I’m not saying Stras isn’t generally competitive, but as compared with CADC, it’s just not even close. Nearly everyone at my school with good grades / recs and an outside shot in hell applied broadly to CADC, I legitimately do not think I’ve seen Stras or Colloton on anyone’s list. Maybe if your social circle is Vanderbilt or something…

[Anonymous User]

Anyone know what impact clerking on the DC Circuit has on applying to the top DC firms? I assume there is some boost compared to other circuits, but does anyone know how much that boost is?

I have never seen a "DC Circuit" boost in comparison to other circuits by virtue of clerking on the DC Circuit. So if you have a 3.0 from Blue Mountain State Law School, but Wilkins or Henderson or whoever liked the cut of your jib, you aren't automatically going to get a spot in the appellate group at GDC or dramatically improve your post-clerking prospects as compared to someone with a 4.0 from HYS clerking on the 4th circuit.

DC Circuit clerks place well at DC firms because they usually have incredible grades and good connections, which is more or less required now to clerk on the circuit in the first place. They weren't struggling to get a DC law spot at OCI.

Pretty much. In fact, the top DC firms may be the least regionally biased firms in the country. They don't have much homerism for local law schools past Georgetown, and they're too sophisticated to conflate circuits with abstract notions of prestige. For instance, they'll know that Colloton or Stras (Eighth Circuit) are better clerkships than Henderson or Walker (D.C. Circuit), even though the Eighth Circuit is arguably the "least prestigious" regional circuit.

What crack are you smoking to think that Stras or Colloton is a better clerkship than anyone on CADC? They’re both fine judges and I agree people will treat you fine applying to DC, but that’s just patently untrue by any metric. CA8 docket will be less relevant to DC practice and those are just less competitive clerkships full stop. If you don’t get a decent location you end up in the pit of CA8 or what not. I don’t know a single person who applied wanting any of the flyover judges more than the good circuits, with the (notable) exception of the few bona fide fedsoc feeders like Sutton or Thapar. Have never heard anyone be like “wow I’d love to clerk for Stras, in whatever random place he’s in these days”. Desire begets competitiveness.

There is some CADC bump from what I’ve seen. DC firms have big regulatory practices and care about the admin chops you’re perceived to have. And everyone knows it’s super hard to get, so you just get prestige for being perceived to be either better connected or having superior credentials. Yes, other clerkships with well known judges elsewhere give you that, but the circuit offers a little bump.

I frankly don’t think you’re very plugged into the federal clerkship game if you think Stras is not selective. Idk if he’s truly more selective than Henderson and Walker, mostly bc I’m not too familiar with the latter two’s hiring practices, but Stras is comfortably in the top decile in selectivity in the country. And Minneapolis is a great city by any metric. Colloton also draws many top applicants, though probably a bit less so for various reasons.

It’s also certainly not true that top applicants generally prefer lower-tier coastal judges to upper-tier non-coastal judges, unless maybe if your social circle is from CLS or NYU, which are well-known for their unusual clerkship cultures.

Quoted anon. HYS, 2 feeder clerkships, 3 co-clerks/very close friends already hired at scotus but please tell me I’m not plugged into the clerkship scene lol. I’m not saying Stras isn’t generally competitive, but as compared with CADC, it’s just not even close. Nearly everyone at my school with good grades / recs and an outside shot in hell applied broadly to CADC, I legitimately do not think I’ve seen Stras or Colloton on anyone’s list. Maybe if your social circle is Vanderbilt or something…

Thank you for being sane. I don’t think anyone outside of Fed Soc gives a shit about these special CA8 judges, let alone enough to use it as a major hiring factor. For the average applicant, COA is COA. When you’re gunning for top lit/OSG or whatever, then 2/9/DC is preferred.

[Anonymous User]

Anyone know what impact clerking on the DC Circuit has on applying to the top DC firms? I assume there is some boost compared to other circuits, but does anyone know how much that boost is?

I have never seen a "DC Circuit" boost in comparison to other circuits by virtue of clerking on the DC Circuit. So if you have a 3.0 from Blue Mountain State Law School, but Wilkins or Henderson or whoever liked the cut of your jib, you aren't automatically going to get a spot in the appellate group at GDC or dramatically improve your post-clerking prospects as compared to someone with a 4.0 from HYS clerking on the 4th circuit.

DC Circuit clerks place well at DC firms because they usually have incredible grades and good connections, which is more or less required now to clerk on the circuit in the first place. They weren't struggling to get a DC law spot at OCI.

Pretty much. In fact, the top DC firms may be the least regionally biased firms in the country. They don't have much homerism for local law schools past Georgetown, and they're too sophisticated to conflate circuits with abstract notions of prestige. For instance, they'll know that Colloton or Stras (Eighth Circuit) are better clerkships than Henderson or Walker (D.C. Circuit), even though the Eighth Circuit is arguably the "least prestigious" regional circuit.

What crack are you smoking to think that Stras or Colloton is a better clerkship than anyone on CADC? They’re both fine judges and I agree people will treat you fine applying to DC, but that’s just patently untrue by any metric. CA8 docket will be less relevant to DC practice and those are just less competitive clerkships full stop. If you don’t get a decent location you end up in the pit of CA8 or what not. I don’t know a single person who applied wanting any of the flyover judges more than the good circuits, with the (notable) exception of the few bona fide fedsoc feeders like Sutton or Thapar. Have never heard anyone be like “wow I’d love to clerk for Stras, in whatever random place he’s in these days”. Desire begets competitiveness.

There is some CADC bump from what I’ve seen. DC firms have big regulatory practices and care about the admin chops you’re perceived to have. And everyone knows it’s super hard to get, so you just get prestige for being perceived to be either better connected or having superior credentials. Yes, other clerkships with well known judges elsewhere give you that, but the circuit offers a little bump.

I frankly don’t think you’re very plugged into the federal clerkship game if you think Stras is not selective. Idk if he’s truly more selective than Henderson and Walker, mostly bc I’m not too familiar with the latter two’s hiring practices, but Stras is comfortably in the top decile in selectivity in the country. And Minneapolis is a great city by any metric. Colloton also draws many top applicants, though probably a bit less so for various reasons.

It’s also certainly not true that top applicants generally prefer lower-tier coastal judges to upper-tier non-coastal judges, unless maybe if your social circle is from CLS or NYU, which are well-known for their unusual clerkship cultures.

Quoted anon. HYS, 2 feeder clerkships, 3 co-clerks/very close friends already hired at scotus but please tell me I’m not plugged into the clerkship scene lol. I’m not saying Stras isn’t generally competitive, but as compared with CADC, it’s just not even close. Nearly everyone at my school with good grades / recs and an outside shot in hell applied broadly to CADC, I legitimately do not think I’ve seen Stras or Colloton on anyone’s list. Maybe if your social circle is Vanderbilt or something…

Stras’s first couple of classes had a SCOTUS clerk, a soon-to-be-SCOTUS-clerk Bristow, and a Chicago #1. Yeah ofc CADC is super competitive, and has many judges more competitive than Stras, but Henderson generally isn’t pulling candidates like that—she doesn’t feed at all.

But more generally, there’s no shortage of SCOTUS-level applicants who apply to non-coastal judges, even preferentially so. About 60% of the country lives in the South or the Midwest, and tons of top applicants are from them (though they’re more represented at Chicago, UVA, etc. than HYS for obvious reasons). On your account it’s awfully hard to explain why six judges on CA6 have recently sent clerks to SCOTUS.

[Anonymous User]

Anyone know what impact clerking on the DC Circuit has on applying to the top DC firms? I assume there is some boost compared to other circuits, but does anyone know how much that boost is?

I have never seen a "DC Circuit" boost in comparison to other circuits by virtue of clerking on the DC Circuit. So if you have a 3.0 from Blue Mountain State Law School, but Wilkins or Henderson or whoever liked the cut of your jib, you aren't automatically going to get a spot in the appellate group at GDC or dramatically improve your post-clerking prospects as compared to someone with a 4.0 from HYS clerking on the 4th circuit.

DC Circuit clerks place well at DC firms because they usually have incredible grades and good connections, which is more or less required now to clerk on the circuit in the first place. They weren't struggling to get a DC law spot at OCI.

Pretty much. In fact, the top DC firms may be the least regionally biased firms in the country. They don't have much homerism for local law schools past Georgetown, and they're too sophisticated to conflate circuits with abstract notions of prestige. For instance, they'll know that Colloton or Stras (Eighth Circuit) are better clerkships than Henderson or Walker (D.C. Circuit), even though the Eighth Circuit is arguably the "least prestigious" regional circuit.

What crack are you smoking to think that Stras or Colloton is a better clerkship than anyone on CADC? They’re both fine judges and I agree people will treat you fine applying to DC, but that’s just patently untrue by any metric. CA8 docket will be less relevant to DC practice and those are just less competitive clerkships full stop. If you don’t get a decent location you end up in the pit of CA8 or what not. I don’t know a single person who applied wanting any of the flyover judges more than the good circuits, with the (notable) exception of the few bona fide fedsoc feeders like Sutton or Thapar. Have never heard anyone be like “wow I’d love to clerk for Stras, in whatever random place he’s in these days”. Desire begets competitiveness.

There is some CADC bump from what I’ve seen. DC firms have big regulatory practices and care about the admin chops you’re perceived to have. And everyone knows it’s super hard to get, so you just get prestige for being perceived to be either better connected or having superior credentials. Yes, other clerkships with well known judges elsewhere give you that, but the circuit offers a little bump.

I frankly don’t think you’re very plugged into the federal clerkship game if you think Stras is not selective. Idk if he’s truly more selective than Henderson and Walker, mostly bc I’m not too familiar with the latter two’s hiring practices, but Stras is comfortably in the top decile in selectivity in the country. And Minneapolis is a great city by any metric. Colloton also draws many top applicants, though probably a bit less so for various reasons.

It’s also certainly not true that top applicants generally prefer lower-tier coastal judges to upper-tier non-coastal judges, unless maybe if your social circle is from CLS or NYU, which are well-known for their unusual clerkship cultures.

Quoted anon. HYS, 2 feeder clerkships, 3 co-clerks/very close friends already hired at scotus but please tell me I’m not plugged into the clerkship scene lol. I’m not saying Stras isn’t generally competitive, but as compared with CADC, it’s just not even close. Nearly everyone at my school with good grades / recs and an outside shot in hell applied broadly to CADC, I legitimately do not think I’ve seen Stras or Colloton on anyone’s list. Maybe if your social circle is Vanderbilt or something…

This is uncalled for. Obviously, CADC is the most competitive circuit in the country. But the fact is that Stras and Colloton have had some clerks go to SCOTUS and generally pull good candidates. If you want to work at a prestigious DC firm, no matter where you work you'll need to leverage your connections and demonstrate a high level of aptitude. Some people with fancy clerkships will turn out to not live up to the accolades they have on paper. Others will impress notwithstanding a lack of a CADC clerkship. Why can't we leave it at this?

[Anonymous User]

If you don’t get a decent location you end up in the pit of CA8 or what not. I don’t know a single person who applied wanting any of the flyover judges more than the good circuits, with the (notable) exception of the few bona fide fedsoc feeders like Sutton or Thapar. Have never heard anyone be like “wow I’d love to clerk for Stras, in whatever random place he’s in these days”. Desire begets competitiveness.

This might kind-of-sort-of describe how liberals at HYS apply, and reflects the heavy East Coast slant of liberal feeders, but of the 25 or so most competitive Fed Soc judges in the country, only 3 are on CADC, and of the top ten, only one. To choose judges at the same level of feeding, it’s just not true that the Newsom clerks are people who couldn’t get Collins or Menashi, even though Newsom is in (gasp) Alabama.

Fairly sure prior poster knows this though if they’re really as plugged in as they say and this is just anti-Fed Soc/non-coastal-elite trolling.

[Anonymous User]

If you don’t get a decent location you end up in the pit of CA8 or what not. I don’t know a single person who applied wanting any of the flyover judges more than the good circuits, with the (notable) exception of the few bona fide fedsoc feeders like Sutton or Thapar. Have never heard anyone be like “wow I’d love to clerk for Stras, in whatever random place he’s in these days”. Desire begets competitiveness.

This might kind-of-sort-of describe how liberals at HYS apply, and reflects the heavy East Coast slant of liberal feeders, but of the 25 or so most competitive Fed Soc judges in the country, only 3 are on CADC, and of the top ten, only one. To choose judges at the same level of feeding, it’s just not true that the Newsom clerks are people who couldn’t get Collins or Menashi, even though Newsom is in (gasp) Alabama.

Fairly sure prior poster knows this though if they’re really as plugged in as they say and this is just anti-Fed Soc/non-coastal-elite trolling.

That's my guess also. The poster you're quoting is wrong twice over. First, it's not at all true that only tippy-top feeders like Thapar are more competitive than the least desirable DC Circuit judges. I'd hazard there are at least 20 more competitive clerkships on 3/4/5/6/8/10/11, and perhaps that many again on 1/2/7/9. Second, even if, to pick a name, Judge Henderson was more competitive than those judges based on some arbitrary metric, that doesn't mean selective employers would favor her clerks accordingly. And in fact, they clearly don't, probably because she has a poor reputation in DC among liberals and conservatives alike. There's an easy way of testing this: pick any selective employer (SCOTUS, DOJ, DC appellate groups, elite litigation boutiques...) and go hunting for her clerks. You won't find many. Instead, you'll see a lot of the "flyover" judges mentioned in this thread.

[Anonymous User]

Anyone know what impact clerking on the DC Circuit has on applying to the top DC firms? I assume there is some boost compared to other circuits, but does anyone know how much that boost is?

I have never seen a "DC Circuit" boost in comparison to other circuits by virtue of clerking on the DC Circuit. So if you have a 3.0 from Blue Mountain State Law School, but Wilkins or Henderson or whoever liked the cut of your jib, you aren't automatically going to get a spot in the appellate group at GDC or dramatically improve your post-clerking prospects as compared to someone with a 4.0 from HYS clerking on the 4th circuit.

DC Circuit clerks place well at DC firms because they usually have incredible grades and good connections, which is more or less required now to clerk on the circuit in the first place. They weren't struggling to get a DC law spot at OCI.

Pretty much. In fact, the top DC firms may be the least regionally biased firms in the country. They don't have much homerism for local law schools past Georgetown, and they're too sophisticated to conflate circuits with abstract notions of prestige. For instance, they'll know that Colloton or Stras (Eighth Circuit) are better clerkships than Henderson or Walker (D.C. Circuit), even though the Eighth Circuit is arguably the "least prestigious" regional circuit.

What crack are you smoking to think that Stras or Colloton is a better clerkship than anyone on CADC? They’re both fine judges and I agree people will treat you fine applying to DC, but that’s just patently untrue by any metric. CA8 docket will be less relevant to DC practice and those are just less competitive clerkships full stop. If you don’t get a decent location you end up in the pit of CA8 or what not. I don’t know a single person who applied wanting any of the flyover judges more than the good circuits, with the (notable) exception of the few bona fide fedsoc feeders like Sutton or Thapar. Have never heard anyone be like “wow I’d love to clerk for Stras, in whatever random place he’s in these days”. Desire begets competitiveness.

There is some CADC bump from what I’ve seen. DC firms have big regulatory practices and care about the admin chops you’re perceived to have. And everyone knows it’s super hard to get, so you just get prestige for being perceived to be either better connected or having superior credentials. Yes, other clerkships with well known judges elsewhere give you that, but the circuit offers a little bump.

I frankly don’t think you’re very plugged into the federal clerkship game if you think Stras is not selective. Idk if he’s truly more selective than Henderson and Walker, mostly bc I’m not too familiar with the latter two’s hiring practices, but Stras is comfortably in the top decile in selectivity in the country. And Minneapolis is a great city by any metric. Colloton also draws many top applicants, though probably a bit less so for various reasons.

It’s also certainly not true that top applicants generally prefer lower-tier coastal judges to upper-tier non-coastal judges, unless maybe if your social circle is from CLS or NYU, which are well-known for their unusual clerkship cultures.

Can confirm, Stras is far more selective than Henderson.

[Anonymous User]

If you don’t get a decent location you end up in the pit of CA8 or what not. I don’t know a single person who applied wanting any of the flyover judges more than the good circuits, with the (notable) exception of the few bona fide fedsoc feeders like Sutton or Thapar. Have never heard anyone be like “wow I’d love to clerk for Stras, in whatever random place he’s in these days”. Desire begets competitiveness.

This might kind-of-sort-of describe how liberals at HYS apply, and reflects the heavy East Coast slant of liberal feeders, but of the 25 or so most competitive Fed Soc judges in the country, only 3 are on CADC, and of the top ten, only one. To choose judges at the same level of feeding, it’s just not true that the Newsom clerks are people who couldn’t get Collins or Menashi, even though Newsom is in (gasp) Alabama.

Fairly sure prior poster knows this though if they’re really as plugged in as they say and this is just anti-Fed Soc/non-coastal-elite trolling.

That's my guess also. The poster you're quoting is wrong twice over. First, it's not at all true that only tippy-top feeders like Thapar are more competitive than the least desirable DC Circuit judges. I'd hazard there are at least 20 more competitive clerkships on 3/4/5/6/8/10/11, and perhaps that many again on 1/2/7/9. Second, even if, to pick a name, Judge Henderson was more competitive than those judges based on some arbitrary metric, that doesn't mean selective employers would favor her clerks accordingly. And in fact, they clearly don't, probably because she has a poor reputation in DC among liberals and conservatives alike. There's an easy way of testing this: pick any selective employer (SCOTUS, DOJ, DC appellate groups, elite litigation boutiques...) and go hunting for her clerks. You won't find many. Instead, you'll see a lot of the "flyover" judges mentioned in this thread.

Quoted anon. I think this has been a tad misunderstood. This is a thread about how DC firms, staffed largely by older partners who tend to lean left, view certain clerkships. It was not intended to be an objective and current debate about relative judge competitiveness and feeding. Fwiw, the value of very right of center feeders can be somewhat negative in DC hiring processes from what I’ve seen at a lot of firms.

But if we want to debate the competitiveness, here’s how I see it. There are roughly 200 circuit judges in the country. You said maybe 40 are more competitive than the least competitive CADC judge, and several on CADC are amongst the most singularly competitive judges in the country. Taking your claim at face value, that means that the circuit alone pretty much guarantees top quartile of circuit judge competitiveness on its own. That was basically my point: generally, as compared to other circuits on balance, CADC is more competitive by a small but measurable amount. Henderson is, yes, probably the worst and least competitive judge on the circuit. But she’s also still pretty rare; more than 3/4 of the circuit is very, very competitive. Most partners generally know that, but are not plugged into yearly feeding stats, and just apply that presumption.

We got side tracked by a debate about whether Stras fits in that top 40 nationally competitive judges category, which was never really the point. Fwiw I’m actually in FedSoc and maybe it’s a school/chapter specific thing but he was not terribly highly sought after by my peers and friends. Perhaps he should be in the top category. But even if he’s up there, that doesn’t change the general point. He’s as far as I know probably the best known and most competitive judge on ca8 now?